Curse

G4ymBoy · Aug 12, 2010, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Any Ranger build involving Splinter Weapon will be done better by Ritualists.

...true and untrue. Yes a lone rit can do splinter barrage better than a lone ranger, but if both are in the party the rit is serving the group better by doing stuff the ranger cannot and givingthe ranger splinter(or GDW), That way both the rit and ranger can be effective...instead of just the rit

Sword Hammer Axe · Aug 12, 2010, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Any Ranger build involving Splinter Weapon will be done better by Ritualists.

Yeah, I don't agree ^^ First of all, the splinter part is only really effective when they are grouping up, so the fact that Rt can use runes and such to power up splinter weapon is only viable there. The Ranger on the other hand, can improve marksmanship and can therefore do a better deal of damaging on a single target with the increased damage of Barrage and skills like "Lightning Reflexes" to make attacking faster, not to mention the conditions a ranger can put on them, meaning they have different options of damaging them at the same time, whereas a Rt normally have to focus on 1 type of damage at once.

Then there's defense. The Rangers both exceed at keeping themselves alive, can work as a panic tank, and put less pressure on the Monks or other heal/supporters, with their better armor and much better defensive skills, making healing or other health upkeep/damage negation less required.

Then there's a Ninja

And then back to the temporary tank, see you might ask yourself wtf we would want with that, we already got a tank, now here's the trickyness: When the Warrior/Assassin/Dervish/Elementalist/Fat guy in a suit gets clobbered, and don't tell me he won't because you do not knohohow anything about the future, the Rangers defensive abilities against both elemental damage and stances that blocks attacks and such, can prove useful while someone's using that ever so required ressurrection signet on the dead tank, so that he/she/inbetween can have a second chance and the Ranger can go back to his damaging position against the next group. A Ritualist could try this and find his/her teeth scattered on the floor and oh my god his left lung is over by that hugeass Blade of Torment who somehow managed to rip it out even though the owner of the lung had a smashing 60 armor and 2 Monks desperately trying to keep him alive by healing off all of their energy in an attempt to keep danger away from themselves by having another character focus on them. In these cases I blame the Monks (not).

G4ymBoy · Aug 12, 2010, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Thanks for killing the thread by moving it into Campfire.

While the suggestion on how to fix the class were quite poor, the analysis of the class was quite spot on and it deserved more than the slow death it will now receive in Campfire.

If people care enough to discuss the suggested changes (I agree the analysis was great) they will visit the campfire.

@ Sword Hammer Axe: You should have stopped right before lightning reflexes. IAS does not help Barrage IIRC, and I wont comment on the rest.

Mintha Syl · Aug 12, 2010, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Thanks for killing the thread by moving it into Campfire.

While the suggestion on how to fix the class were quite poor, the analysis of the class was quite spot on and it deserved more than the slow death it will now receive in Campfire.

And to say suggestion threads about mesmers, dervishes and paragons always stayed in riverside without anyone ever complaining....

Desert Rose · Aug 12, 2010, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by G4ymBoy

...Barrage+Splinter+EBSoH, IA+Splinter+Ignite+EBSoH. Convince me Mesmers have better AoE. I know the range for most mesmer AoE is wider but you know for a fact that with the right pulling it is easy to hit the max amount of targets with Barrage (mind you i hate using barrage it is just an example).

I'm sure he was talking about AoE disruption, not AoE damage.
Barrage isn't good unless you have multiple Barrage users in your party and the rest of the party supports the Barrage users. Also, instead wasting energy and time to cast Splinter you're usually better off attacking a foe. Also, if you first pull the foes together you lose so much time during the pulling that in the end you mostly will be faster if you use single target damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by G4ymBoy

You should have stopped right before lightning reflexes. IAS does not help Barrage IIRC, and I wont comment on the rest.

Barrage is influented by an IAS, it just doesn't get the full benefit of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mintha Syl

And to say suggestion threads about mesmers, dervishes and paragons always stayed in riverside without anyone ever complaining....

Yeah, I checked if the other threads got moved as well but no, just this one.

G4ymBoy · Aug 12, 2010, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The main point of this thread should have been to alarm A.Net of the ranger problem.
This will not happen in Campfire.

I am sure they are aware, rangers are just not as high on their list (I wish they were). The other profession based threads should be moved also. Placing this thread in riverside was wrong in the first place. (btw I don't know if i told you but I love your avatar picture).

@ Desert Rose: Barrage is still useful even with just one barrager, I agree that having splinter weapon on the ranger just slows down things too much. Figured he was talking about AoE rupt after I already posted and in that case of course the mesmers are better at that.

Thanks for clarifying IAS+Barrage, I feel the IAS is not worth it when using barrage. You are totally right about the pulling taking longer and I would never ask a party of friends to correctly pull and ball every mob, when i am H+H and using Barrage I do not mind taking to time to ball them up for lots of pretty yellow numbers but generally speaking yeah it does take too long.

Sword Hammer Axe · Aug 12, 2010, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by G4ymBoy

@ Sword Hammer Axe: You should have stopped right before lightning reflexes. IAS does not help Barrage IIRC, and I wont comment on the rest.

Untrue! Barrage doesn't have a casting time and therefore uses the same amount of time to fire as a normal arrow. You've just never used it right, it seems

You probably, like most people, just spam barrage, as soon as it's recharged you fire the next shot. Well I don't. Neither does heroes. For full effect I fire barrage again after the second shot as been fired, which takes about (haven't calculated it exactly) 0.5 seconds less for 3 arrows with a longbow, that's right a longbow, one of the slowest firing bows, than if you fire 3 barrage shots, meaning you can get an extra arrow in after 6 shots. Hell I've even tried some tests with Barrage and noticed that even if you DO spam barrage with 33% IAS you actually perform the animation faster, although it's not as apparent as without skills use, meaning there's less time in between the shots.

On a sidenote: Wtf is with that comment "I won't comment on the rest". That's just rude, dude, that's like saying you know better than me but don't intend to tell me, because you judgementally think that I won't be able to listen to reason.
I could do the same as you, categorizing you as a judgemental, dickhead, but instead I'd rather continue the debate by using actual arguments.

G4ymBoy · Aug 12, 2010, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe

snip

I did not mean to offend or hurt your feelings sorry if I did, maybe not saying anything about the rest of the post at would have been better, i just really did not have a comment and did not want you to think i ignored the rest of it. Sorry.

Thanks, I do know how barrage works (5 years ranger experience) I just dont think bringing an IAS for it is justified. You present a good argument for the opposite, it just seems like a wasted slot to me. I prefer to not use Barrage it is very boring most of the time.

@ upier: I agree about strategic buffs. I would prefer only 10 skills get changed into some new interesting function (like they did with Panic). To be honest though (and I am biased toward rangers) the dervish and para are in much worse shape than the Ranger atm imo. If the devs are looking to update ranger skills (which I hope they are) they will look at the ranger forum. And sorry for mentioning your picture over and over, it is so cute though.

Voodoo Rage · Aug 12, 2010, 07:32 PM // 19:32

I appreciate the discussion but I do think that we tend to be a little overly obsessed with profession balance at the expense of power creep. Given that the game lets as play several characters and we aren't always "locked" in to HAVING to play any particular profession, I'm willing to accept that some professions may be ultimately weaker than others in certain situations.

However, as someone who started with a ranger, I do see the points the OP is making and think that they are worthy of being addressed to some extent, especially if Anet plans on dragging over broken dynamics like trapping, nature rituals, and pets into GW2.

UnChosen · Aug 12, 2010, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The only problem with the dervish is that he's not as obscenely overpowered as other melee options. He's still a god (he is a melee physical after-all)- just that other options are so out there that he pales in comparison. He is one of the strongest PvE classes - and we treat him like shit.

So I'd say that the ranger has the biggest problem next to the para. The lack of SoH and the fact that the guys are supposed to be weaker because they are ranged (when this fact has ABSOLUTELY no meaning in PvE with non-stop KDs, consumables or just monsters refusing to move) hurts them too much.

And no problem about the avatar love.

QFT.

IMO the order from the most problem to the least problem should be Paragon/Elementalist (One build wonders) > Ranger (Master of None) > Dervish (Wars/Sins' Little Brother)

maxxfury · Aug 13, 2010, 01:14 AM // 01:14

If you scale AOHM with mysticism, then you rebalance a lot of the problems with the derv's damage output in comparison to a war/sin with a scythe...

Change elems "intensity" or "elem lord" to give an inherent AP% or +damage effect.

*Either: increase the range of barrage+volley or take away the "removes preps" and leave the range adjacent or remove the target cap and leave at adjacent range but increase the recharge time for barrage only......
*decreas
*change/remove the after cast delay on sunder/pene so an ias is more effective with them
*add some way for a ranger to have a GOOD 33%ias that doesnt involve a prep/elite or beastmastery spec.
*Changes mels assault to be a true aoe attack that can carry buffs
*change body shot to be more than just cracked Armour for energy gain (maybe?)

All pretty simple changes that would be easy to implement..admittedly, all damage related, but damage>pve says hi

That would just leave paras in need of a quick fix...
perfect? nope, not by a mile
maybe a little op? pfft
does it really matter so much?...*rollseyes*
quick? indeed!

G4ymBoy · Aug 13, 2010, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

QFT.

IMO the order from the most problem to the least problem should be Paragon/Elementalist (One build wonders) > Ranger (Master of None) > Dervish (Wars/Sins' Little Brother)

My bias makes me want to switch ranger to first but one build wonders really should come first. Derv feels a little stale now too, VoW spam has not left my dervs bar in a while, plus...avatrs >.>

gremlin · Aug 13, 2010, 10:16 AM // 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe

Rangers are not underpowered. Splinter Weapon/Barrage, Incendiary/ignite arrows, Enraged Lunge beastmasters, Glass Arrows marksman, BHA rangers and so on are extremely viable even on Hard Mode.

That said I agree that rangers could use a specific buff: Nature Rituals are stupid, seeing as enemies benefit as much from them, or more, as u do. Also traps are next to useless in PvE.

Splinter weapon a Ritualist skill and barrage is quite good I am never sure if when it says the next 5 attacks that is 5 barrages or 5 hits which could be 1 barrage.
Sometimes it seems to last a couple of barrage attacks sometimes not.

Barrage increases you damage by around 20 hit several targets cost 5 e pretty good but not great as it removes preparations.
You can go ranger ele and add elemental damage which has some use but not much.

Incendiary and Ignite arrows ok I used them a lot in early normal mode but not later on or in hard mode because fire doesn't seem very effective there.

Timing of companions skills isn't easy and I would prefer the companion to handle its own attacks.

Glass arrows is pretty poor for an elite if my arrow gets blocked it causes bleeding, so its an attack skill that either does +17 damage or Bleeding and I cannot tell which it is going to do.
Better skills out there imo

BHA rangers now that is a pretty useful build style

Rangers can spread conditions very well that part is fine.

I would like a little more armour piercing ability as I think that is one thing the ranger should do best.

belshazaarswrath · Aug 13, 2010, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Wow this thread actually got moved. Yay!

Age · Aug 13, 2010, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The main point of this thread should have been to alarm A.Net of the ranger problem.
This will not happen in Campfire.

They don't care much about this game any more only GW2 and possibley whinney playerbase.

belshazaarswrath · Aug 13, 2010, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If they are aware of the shortcomings, then something like this exercises pressure.
And pressure is absolutely needed if we actually want to see some changes.

No

Anet has its agenda. Making some thread about rangers in the wrong part of the forums will not make them change it.

GvG
Dervishes
Paragons
Smiting Monks

Over the next year or so these changes will be what they are working on. After that who knows? Maybe they will get around to Rangers and Ele's. Maybe not. But posting shit in the wrong part of the forums will not make them change the agenda. It simply will not. It will only annoy people (like myself) who know the thread doesn't belong there.

Anyway there are very simple solutions to making rangers work great (making preps stack...having multi target damage skills not strip all preps) and there are long complicated ways of making them work great (the book of a first post in this thread). I'd like the simpler way to be done because it isn't as much new shit to pick up.

Amy Awien · Aug 13, 2010, 10:46 PM // 22:46

And you are familiar with the Live Team's agenda?

I wouldn't mind alot if I could use ignite+EBSoH (even without splinter weapons) with Barrage but it might get a bit OP, really.

belshazaarswrath · Aug 13, 2010, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

And you are familiar with the Live Team's agenda?

I wouldn't mind alot if I could use ignite+EBSoH (even without splinter weapons) with Barrage but it might get a bit OP, really.

Isn't pretty much goddamn everyone at this point? If I don't see what I just said posted somewhere every day at least 10 times I count myself lucky.

Also a bit overpowered in a climate where almost everything is incredibly overpowered isn't bad if you ask me.

It's no more overpowered than sins dealing 190 dps to 3 foes at a time or paragons mitigating 80% of the damage you are taking at the time.

And it's definitely not more overpowered than being able to solo the whole game with 6 spirits and a longbow.

Cuilan · Aug 13, 2010, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Those updates mentioned are very focused updates, which can easily handle a few skills of other professions here and there. Rangers don't need that drastic amount of change.

belshazaarswrath · Aug 13, 2010, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

A summary of this thread if it's kept in Campfire:
Rangers suck.
It's advisable to stay away from them.

A summary of this thread in the Riverside

"Rangers blow here are changes"
"No they don't stfu"
"GTFO of Riverside this isn't general at all"

At least the Dervish and Paragon thread had a semblance of being general (they just degenerated into wtf should we do to fix these classes). This thread started that way. Which is why the mods moved it.

Anyway I feel everyones pain. I think Rangers and Ele's (core classes...) need to get fixed. I think there are easy fixes to get em where they need to be. And I have no idea why they gave SMITING MONKS preference over Rangers and Ele's.